Old Stop & Shop property - annexation or not

Dave, thank you for asking (0.00 / 0)

For years the Stop & Shop complex was a source for work for residents of Hyde Park & Dedham, but since they moved, I haven't seen much activity down there.  I believe a School Bus company and some warehouse activity.

$2.5 million is not enough, I say 11 million for the annexation rights with clauses written to limit any access directly to Dedham roads.  Menino is a powerful man and I would hate for him to stick it to Dedham at a later point.

If the homes are there, maybe the trains will finally move back to the Readville Rail yard to warm up in the morning.

I think the 11 Million should be split this way.
5 million to lower new Senior center cost
5 Million to School Dept to counter effect the Barron, Jefferson Pl and Fairfield Green projects
1 Millio to the Town.

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by: JM @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 07:39:41 AM CDT

So your answer is "yes?" (0.00 / 0)

I appreciate your sentiment regarding the size of the payment.  The question is not "is $2.5 million enough" (and I would agree that it is not) but "is annexation appropriate?" 

If Dedham were to support annexation, we would be tacitly endorsing the construction of 1800 new residential units a stone's throw from our borders.  Essentially, we're washing our hands of responsibility for what occurs on the parcel and  ceding those decisions to Boston.  Now it's not that I don't trust Boston to manage the project but there are implications to our absence from the discussion.

Also, I don't even want to discuss a division of spoils potentially resulting from annexation.  For one thing, we should not set expectations so early in discussions.  For another, it would be my wish, if annexation were to occur, that whatever payment we receive be spread out over 5 or 10 years.  One time revenues are less helpful than a guaranteed stream of revenue for a specified length of time that will help us with long-term financial planning.

Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak.

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by: David @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 08:07:11 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

But Builders (0.00 / 0)

go belly up all the time, I think taking all the money up front makes sense to me.

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by: JM @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 08:13:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Interesting historical aside (0.00 / 0)

The Boston Public Library maintains a section of their website devoted to past sporting venues in the area.  You can see the Stop & Shop parcel in its day as a horse and auto racing track.

Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak.

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by: David @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 08:28:57 AM CDT

As it stands (0.00 / 0)

Dave, it is my understanding that this property is the only area in Dedham currently zoned industrial.  Is this correct?  If so, it is also the only location that would allow adult entertainment establishments other than any "grandfathered" locations currently in town.  While it isn't likely to factor into the financial compensation for the annexation, this may be a significant factor in the town's motivation to annex the land, as a new area in town would need to be zoned for industrial or such adult establishments.  Otherwise such a business could open anywhere in town.

Also, is the town under any obligation to the developer to rezone the property to anything other than industrial if they choose not to allow the annexation?  While Dedham residents may not benefit from significant tax revenues with respect to the property, they may simply be comfortable with the status quo.  This may be preferred rather than risking additional large developments on our border that may further exacerbate a growing traffic problem on Dedham roads due to a number of large development projects currently planned or underway.

If indeed there is no real significant NEED for Dedham to act on this property to maintain the status quo, then the financial benefit that may come to the town is our only specific motivation.  Therefore that suggests two things to me:  1)  Dedham's support of the annexation would HAVE to be directly linked to the compensation and can't be determined as a separate matter  2)  The value of the property is likely greater than the numbers put forth here and in the Transcript simply because maintaining the status quo at a time of such rapid change in town isn't factored into the calculation.

These ideas are reflected in JM's comment above.  The figure he proposes can be debated, but tangible benefits to the town, such as paying for a senior center or off-setting school costs is how residents would need to look at this.  Considering the biggest concern of a project like this on Dedham's border would be traffic, is $5 Million from Campaneli dedicated to traffic mitigation and road improvements feel worthwhile to residents? $10 Million?

Finally, does the annexation require a vote at town meeting?  Is it a 2/3rds vote like rezoning?  Does it need to go to a ballot townwide?  This may also be significant as each type of vote requires more residents to be happy with the level of compensation.

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by: Eric @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 08:40:08 AM CDT

Its not worth it (0.00 / 0)

I wrote about this a few weeks ago and I don't think it is worth it for all the reasons Eric mentions.  This will be Massachusetts' largest housing development ever, and it will be right on our doorstep.  I don't think we should cede the land at all, but if we do we should be getting a lot more money for it.

myDedham.org - a community since 1636 and online since 2007!

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by: Brian @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 09:01:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I thought (0.00 / 0)

the Makepeace Housing complex was the largest with apprx 3000 new homes spread over 3/4 towns

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by: JM @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 21:34:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're right (0.00 / 0)

It will be Boston's largest, not Massachusetts'.

myDedham.org - a community since 1636 and online since 2007!

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by: Brian @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 22:05:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No obligation to rezone (0.00 / 0)

Eric-

You are correct.  Dedham need not take any action.  We can hope that some other project comes along to make use of the parcel for an accepted use under current zoning and generate additional tax revenue.

The alternative to annexation for the developer is to petition town meeting to rezone the parcel for residential uses.  Given recent history and the nature of the parcel, it seems unlikely that town meeting would support rezoning.

But I would argue that our interests go beyond financial.  We have the ability to affect the nature development that occurs on the parcel and annexation would remove our voice in that process.

I think what I'm asking is that if you assume we can come to a figure that both Dedham and the developer feel is acceptable, is annexation something we should support?

The process for annexation, as I understand it, would be for town meeting to approve annexation, the City of Boston (through the City Council) would accept the land and then petition the legislature for approval of the transfer.  I do not believe the transfer would appear on a ballot.

David

Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak.

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by: David @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 09:03:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dictating use (0.00 / 0)

Thanks for the info Dave.

I'm a little unsure of what you mean by "the ability to affect the nature of the development that occurs on the parcel and annexation would remove our voice in that process". 

Seems to me that we can either annex the land to Boston and let them dictate any zoning changes, which will likely result in the proposed housing project.  Another option is to keep it and leave the property industrial forcing the developer to work within those constraints.  The last is to keep it and rezone, but as you stated it is unlikely town meeting would vote to rezone for housing given the issues with service to the property and strain on schools.

Did you or the committee have other options in mind?

Also, it may not be what Campanelli would really like to be using the property for, but another lease has been signed using another 85,000sqft of the current facilities.

Older articles covering this issue can be found here and here.  The second mentions the adult entertainment issue I brought up in my first comment.

In addition to the ones at the Campanelli site Dave mentioned above, there is also this nice image of the property in question:

There have been some comparisons between Campanelli's proposed project and the Harbor Point project in Dorchester.

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by: Eric @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 10:14:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Perhaps an agreement between Dedham & Boston (0.00 / 0)

There might be some scenario where Boston and Dedham work together to chart a course for the parcel.  We're meeting with town counsel next week and that's one of the questions I intend to pose.

It doesn't surprise me that they've signed new leases on the space.  They anticipate that it will take at least two years to resolve the annexation question and then, assuming they're successful, they'll have to start the development process with the BRA. 

The signing of a new lease does, however, bring into question their contention that the site is obsolete.

Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak.

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by: David @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 10:26:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

CNS Stores (0.00 / 0)

signed the lease, they look like a interesting company.

http://www.csnstores...

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by: JM @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 21:55:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Flip side (0.00 / 0)

I meant to add this to my previous comment as I think its important to think about.

While I'm concerned about the impact on Dedham and the level of compensation for any annexation, I think these types of projects are becoming a necessity.  Dense housing near public transportation is the only way for many people to affording living close to the city and the reduction in traffic on the roadways and reduced gas use/emissions cannot be ignored.

These types of developments are the responsible future, so I don't want to come across as being against the concept and I applaud the developer for proposing a forward-thinking plan.  On the other hand, the developer is primarily focused on the bottom line (as any responsible business would be) and is going to make a boatload of cash if the annexation is approved.  Some of that should benefit Dedham.

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by: Eric @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 08:51:21 AM CDT

Try the other way (0.00 / 0)

Why doesn't the committee look at taking the other half of the property from Boston, and building something new on Dedham land?  I don't want 1,500 units of housing, but maybe the developer could come up with something for the site that would produce a lot of tax revenue for Dedham without the costs associated with thousands and thousands of new residents.  Something mixed use with some housing, commercial and office space perhaps.

myDedham.org - a community since 1636 and online since 2007!

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by: Brian @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 09:05:36 AM CDT

The nature of the parcel (0.00 / 0)

The problem is that you're then left with a larger, non-contiguous parcel.  The only way to access the site is through Boston making the delivery of services problematic. 

Currently, the only direct costs to the town are public safety-related.  Expanding the size of the site would exacerbate the problem.

Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak.

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by: David @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 09:16:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Make the developer pay (0.00 / 0)

If the project is done right the developer is going to make a boatload of money off of this.  If one of the conditions attached to it is that Capanelli is responsible for snowplowing, for paying to hook up to the Boston sewer, etc, then he could still make a profit and bring in a lot of new tax revenue for Dedham.  I don't know if it would work in reality, but its something to consider.

myDedham.org - a community since 1636 and online since 2007!

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by: Brian @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 11:24:05 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Any taxes (0.00 / 0)

brought in, won't ofset the $$ impact on the schools, police and fire depts.

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by: JM @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 11:41:54 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Preferred Situation (0.00 / 0)

I believe the preferred situation to be not giving up ownership of the land and keeping it zoned as the industrial it is.

Land is a valuable resource and there's only so much of it.  We can't wave a wand and make more of it appear.  I'm  a staunch opponent of giving up any of our land.  Any benefit we get from giving up land is temporary whereas the land is forever.  There may be a time when that land will be very useful for the town.  Either as a place of employment for its residents (via businesses on that parcel) or perhaps as some public works project or some other need to fit into the Master Plan.

Speaking of the Master Plan has anyone on the committee looked at the current Master Plan or thoughts for the reformulated one and come to conclusions as to how this situation fits into (or fails to fit into) the Master Plan as it is now or may be down the road?  The Master Plan is supposed to be a guiding hand to help us deal with issues just like this.

We also need to realize that we are not obligated to rezone the parcel and allow the incredibly large housing project to take place.  It is perfectly acceptable to keep the parcel zoned as industrial making the developer work within those constraints.  I'd like to see exhaustive proof that the developer has done everything he can to lure productive businesses to that parcel that will benefit him without requiring changes on our part in terms or rezoning or ceding the land.  I realize the access may be problematic but I am sure a solution to that exists.

What about the adult businesses?  I'm sure that most residents are like me and don't want a strip club, adult video store, or other adult business to open up in their backyard (metaphorically speaking).  If we give up the land and don't have a zoned section for this type of business they can open up where they wish in town (more or less).  Is that what we want?  And, if we do create a new zoned section where will it be?  What neighborhood is willing to accept that in their backyard?  I know mine isn't.  Is your's?

For argument's sake let's pretend the best thing is to give up the land to Boston so the developer can build the gigantic housing complex.  Exactly how much money and what type of compensation should Dedham receive for the land?  It is a lot of land and as I said before there's only so much of it.  We can't make more land.  What is a fair price for the land, who determines that, and how do they determine it?

I know it is early to get into the business of dividing the spoils, so to speak, but any compensation should be evenly split across the town.  In other words the Public Library should receive some of the compensation.  I will want the Library's portion to go into a fund to build a new library.  Situations like this allow us to work towards building projects without overburdening the tax payers with hefty overrides.

As I said I know it is early to be getting into that but as a Library Trustee I have to ensure that the library is not left out and not forgotten.

Lastly, the Committee meetings to evaluate the best course for the land.  When do they take place, where are they, and are they open to the public?

Jonathan J. Reinhart

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by: jonathan @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 13:41:58 PM CDT

Thanks but NO Thanks (0.00 / 0)

I know it is in the earlier stages of discussion, but I dont see any value in annexing that parcel.  I would like to see us continue to generate $187,000 in tax revenue and not be burdened with the largest housing development in the Commonwealth in our back yard!  I also dont like to see projects being discussed ie the senior center funding, school budgets etc attached to discussion as too many times that becomes the focus, "what could we do with the money"!

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by: Amy @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 16:07:20 PM CDT

Let the fights begin (0.00 / 0)

  The Kids have been fighting with Kids from West Roxbury and the Georgetown Housing Developement down at condon for the 38 years I've been alive and now they are using bats and Knives.  Wait till they put an 1800 unit developement down by the Manner.  The Mayor who only lives 2 streets away will move out because it will be to dangerous.  JM has a great Idea about the extra money which I'm sure they'll pay (look at what HSL Started out Offering) but after we spend it on these projects we stuck with it forever. It might be in the City but we will feel the effects foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

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by: goodvoter @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 19:50:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Who is the Mayor? (0.00 / 0)

and why would he/she move, the Manor has been fighting with Readville for year too.

I see your points on why not to develope it.

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by: JM @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 21:29:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Light dawns on (0.00 / 0)

marblehead.

Mayor = Menino

He lives in the smallest house in Readville now, he's surrounded by neighbors who are police officers or firemen and a lot of the City workers come from the neighorhood.

I don't see him moving till he gives up being Mayor.

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by: JM @ Thu May 17, 2007 at 22:03:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not (0.00 / 0)

A few thoughts:

1. We will be sitting in the "triangle of traffic" if this goes through. Between Westwood Station, Legacy Place and this 1800 unit small town(I am not sure how many homes there are in Dedham, but this is probaly close to 15-20% of them ....in a very small area, right on our doorstop. We have no say in Westwood Sation. Legacy Place is the better deal for Dedham and we should stay focused on that...so we get the best deal while managing the inevitable impact...thats right inevitable...."develpoment happens"....perfect examples are HSL, Rustcraft Rd. Apartments and Garritty Lumber Yard....whenever someone owns property and zoning permits(and sometimes when it does not)the "best use" of that property will be determined by the owner. Here we have an example of the zoning clearly being stated and we should not change it...like it or not the town agreed to change the zoning of the HSL property.

2. I worked there...I drove down River, to W, Milton, through Readville Square and went about three hundred yards and took a right and I was there...took about seven minutes...very easy and this is how they will be coming through Dedham to get to highway etc....because driving  through Milton/Canton to 128 is a nightmare.

3. The idea that this property is not viable for the developer is folly as evidenced by his most recent lease signing. The value of that lease to them is approx. 8-10 million dollars of value(I have assumed that the lease is for $10 PER SQ.FT. NNN...the $10 per ft. is probaly conservative....that is $850,000 per year for one tenth of the building ..I used a capitalization rate of 10% to derive my approx. value...the cap rate for this asset class, in this location is probaly lower and therefore the value is higher.....so get leasing...u picked up a distressed property from Stop & Shop on the cheap and with some creative marketing and repositioning of the asset you will have hit a home run....just dont try using pine tar when you get up against us.

4. JPI just sold 300 units for 76 million dollars(who would have thought.....JPI did) do the math.

5. If this happens...this lifelong Dedham resident will be putting a for sale sign in my Oakdale neighborhood home...I say NO....hope my town does to.

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by: hereindedham @ Fri May 18, 2007 at 12:33:24 PM CDT

New Position? (0.00 / 0)

Am I right that Town Meeting funded a new economic development position at the last town meeting?  This should be job ONE!

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by: Amy @ Fri May 18, 2007 at 18:31:47 PM CDT

Universal Hub (0.00 / 0)

Universal Hub, a sort of clearing house for Boston area blogs, has written about this project.  I think the first line of his post really puts this into perspective:

"Neponset Village is so large it would actually make Boston physically bigger."

Says a lot, doesn't it?

myDedham.org - a community since 1636 and online since 2007!

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by: Brian @ Tue May 22, 2007 at 11:29:51 AM CDT

Annexaton revisited (0.00 / 0)

I returned this discussion to the top of the page primarily because there is a new article discussing the issue and because its looming as the next big decision this town needs to make.  So far it appears much of the discussion is occurring behind closed doors, but the article indicates public meetings are planned for the near future.  What do members of this community think?

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by: Eric @ Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 06:05:23 AM CDT

Point of clarification (0.00 / 0)

With the exception of the last meeting, where the committee met with town counsel in executive session, meetings the committee has held thus far have been open to the public, posted and reported in both the Transcript and the Times.

The committee does feel it important to solicit public input on annexation and will most likely be scheduling further public meetings (hopefully at the middle school) in the weeks to come.

Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak.

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by: David @ Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 10:02:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

David (0.00 / 0)

Who is on the Committee?

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by: JM @ Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 10:28:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Committee membership (0.00 / 0)

Myself (representing the Finance Committee), Dennis Teehan and Jim MacDonald (representing the Board of Selectmen), Mike Podolski and Ralph Steeves (representing the Planning Board) and John Caruso, Russ Poole and Dimitria Sullivan ("at-large" members who applied to serve).

Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak.

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by: David @ Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 10:38:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Poor wording & other thoughts (0.00 / 0)

Sorry, poor wording on my part with the 'behind closed doors' phrasing.  I realize a meeting with town counsel isn't going to be public and it would be a little difficult for the entire town of Dedham to sit down with Menino.  I did try and attend a meeting back in March I think it was, but it was at the site and I couldn't find anyone.  Now that I know who is on the committee, I know who to contact for future info.

It appears from the discussion in this thread and my own personal perception of 'the talk around town', that many would not want this type of a large scale development in the town or on its border irregardless of the size of the monetary windfall to the town.  It may also be a question of timing.  There is a heck of a lot going on in town right now and its probably the worst possible moment for Campanelli to make such a proposal.

Therefore, would it be possible to put forth some type of resolution for the fall special town meeting to get a sense of where the town stands?  It would not have to be anything particularly binding I believe.  A simple vote by town meeting members who represent each of the precincts on whether it is worth putting together a figure, or are we simply not interested in considering it at this time.  It would certainly go to what Dave was trying to ask with the original post, and would save a lot of time if the town is unwilling at this point in time.

As a side note, have there been any warrant submissions to date for a fall special town meeting?  Who does one talk to for that kind of info?

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by: Eric @ Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 11:55:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree (0.00 / 0)

I agree - I haven't talked to anyone who is in favor of the annexation.

You could put forth a resolution, but I'm pretty sure the committee is supposed to report by the special town meeting this fall.  If thats the case it would remove the need for a resolution.  If they are not going to report back until the annual I think it would be worthwhile.  You, as a Town Meeting Member, would submit it to the Selectmen and they set the warrant.  You can call them to see if anything has been submitted.

Also, its completely for geeks, but theres a great book that lays out all the laws and rules relating to Town Meetings called Town Meeting Time.  I don't think Dedham has the most recent (2001) edition, but Westwood does.

myDedham.org - a community since 1636 and online since 2007!

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by: Brian @ Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 12:28:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Make sure your opinion is known (0.00 / 0)

I've come across more than one supporter of annexation.

If residents feel that it's a bad idea, they should make sure they communicate their opinions to members of the committee.

Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak.

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by: David @ Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 13:13:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why? (0.00 / 0)

Why are they in favor of annexation?

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by: hereindedham @ Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 13:15:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The overwhelming answer is money (0.00 / 0)

If the number is large enough, some folks see that as outweighing the downside of 1900 additional housing units.

Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak.

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by: David @ Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 16:43:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I have given (4.00 / 1)

this topic a great deal of thought and I feel strongly that no amount of money would make this transaction a good deal for Dedham.  1900 new housing units is an overwhelming number.  There is no way that a negative impact won't spill into Dedham, one or the other. The money will be spent in no time and generations to come will be stuck with the reminents of our shortsightedness.

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by: Theresa J @ Wed Jun 06, 2007 at 19:47:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Suggest Library Purchase (0.00 / 0)

I searched and Dedham does not own that edition. I took the liberty of using the DPL's Suggest Library Purchase Link to recommend this purchase. It is near the end of the fiscal year and there may not be $59 right now to buy it. 

Anybody can suggest an item for the library to purchase. In fact, the library encourages it. If there's a great book, comic, movie, cd, dvd, magazine, or anything else you think the library should have! Just go ahead and fill out the form and the library will buy the item if possible.

Once again go to http://dedhamlibrary.org/feedback_bookrequest.htm to suggest the item for purchasing.

Jonathan J. Reinhart

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by: jonathan @ Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 21:49:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No resolution necessary (0.00 / 0)

The committee may report to a special in the fall if a recommendation can be reached by then.

But no resolution is necessary.

If there is another article proposing annexation, simply defeat it.

Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak.

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by: David @ Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 13:11:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Timeline (0.00 / 0)

I wasn't exactly sure of the timeline involved.  If the committee intends to have a recommendation or a vote is actually anticipated at the fall special town meeting, then no resolution would be needed obviously.

Am I correct to assume that the committee is actually looking for proper compensation should Dedham approve the transfer, or are you simply trying to determine public opinion at this stage?  I'm still of the opinion that the numbers would be useful in coming to a decision, so these things would go hand in hand for me.  I also get the impression that many don't care how much the town would receive, or the amount would go well beyond anything Campanelli could support.  What approach or steps has the committee taken to figure this out beyond what you posted in this thread?  May I ask what was the nature of the discussion with town council?, all the article said was "to discuss whether to continue pursuing the idea".

With respect to Boston's interest

Selectman James MacDonald, the chairman of the Committee to Study Boundary Change, said yesterday the meeting, which will take place before the end of the month, would give Dedham an idea of whether Boston is interested in the developer's proposal to build 1,850 units of housing there.

MacDonald said fellow committee members Michael Podolski and David Martin will join him in the meeting with the mayor. The developer who proposed the annexation, Campanelli Cos., is setting up the meeting and will also be on hand.

Do we really not know yet if Boston is even willing to do this, or is this just a sales pitch meeting for Campanelli?

Finally,

"We want to find out what Boston's reaction would be if we went forward," MacDonald said. "Then also if Dedham did not go forward with it, what would Boston do?"

I don't understand this statement, if Dedham does nothing is Boston going to invade using the developer's private army?  I kid, sorta...

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by: Eric @ Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 14:00:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Process (0.00 / 0)

If Dedham decided to support annexation, town meeting would vote to annex.  Then the Boston City Council would have to vote to support of annexation as well.  Then Dedham and Boston would approach the legislature for an act to make the annexation a reality.  So the order is Dedham, Boston and then the Commonwealth.  The legislature would not act unless Dedham and Boston were in agreement.

The meeting with town counsel was to discuss process, options and strategy.

If Dedham does nothing, Campanelli can choose to petition town meeting to rezone the property to residential (which I doubt town meeting would support), revise their proposal to comply with existing zoning on the Dedham side, proceed with the development on the Boston portion of the parcel while leaving the Dedham portion alone or sell the Dedham portion.  Since they paid $25.6 million for the parcel in 2003, it is unlikely that they would simply leave half of it empty.

The meeting with Boston is to determine their interest in the project.  There is no sense continuing discussions if Boston isn't interested and we want to determine that for ourselves.  Campanelli initially approached the Boston Redevelopment Authority (the BRA) with their plan and they were told to come see Dedham first.

Campanelli has proposed financial compensation in the form of a one time payment of $2.5 million.  While we have not taken an official vote, it is my opinion that if this were to move forward, that figure is much too small.  The figure must be larger and must be structured in such a way that it is both guaranteed and pays out over a number of years.  Meetings thus far have largely centered around their assumptions in coming up with this figure.

You are correct that the compensation amount is crucial in making this decision. A larger question is whether an additional 1900 housing units abutting Dedham are desirable at any price.

Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak.

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by: David @ Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 18:58:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Helpful (0.00 / 0)

I don't think it is necessary, but if the committee can't reach a recommendation by the Special then I think a non-binding resolution favoring - or opposing - the project might be useful for the committee to get the sense of Town Meeting. 

myDedham.org - a community since 1636 and online since 2007!

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by: Brian @ Tue Jun 05, 2007 at 22:44:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

just another (0.00 / 0)

piece of land that dedham doesn't know what to do with. so they's ll just waste money and let it sit and rot until they decide to put a hooters mall in.

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by: pumpkin head @ Sun Jun 17, 2007 at 12:05:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No to Annexation (0.00 / 0)

In my opinion the decision rests on where would we put the adult entertainment district.  Lets not be short sighted in this matter.  What would be the cascade effect if adult entertainment shops started springing up around Dedham?  How would an adult shop opening up in East Dedham in the CVS plaza impact that area?  Say one opens in Oakdale Square?  What would the Dedham Square Circle do if a "shop" opened up in the Square?

Are we not trying to improve the overall quality of life in Dedham?  Recent actions and projects seem to indicate that that is what is happening and darn good thing too.  This is a great town!

No amount of silver will compensate the town if sex shops start opening up in our neighborhoods.  It's not worth it!

We will be "assured" that the worst case scenario won't materialize.  We can't trust that! The worst case scenario is if annexation occurs that sex shops will be opening up on every street corner.  We can't take the chance.

If you support annexation then why don't you go the whole way . . . along with the Stop&Shop property why don't we include, East Dedham to West Roxbury, The Manor to Hyde Park, and merge the rest of the town back with Westwood and dissolve the Town of Dedham?  Because if annexation is allowed the fabric of this wonderful town will eventually erode away and when that happens there won't be anything left worth promoting or saving.

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by: AzCats @ Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 11:10:53 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Readville perspective (0.00 / 0)

I am pleased to hear that there is a significant effort to prevent the annexation of this property. As a homeowner and resident or Readville in Hyde Park, the last thing I want is to add nearly 2,000 people to my little neighborhood. Boston barely takes care of the property on my "side of the tracks" (not the Mayor's)in Readville as it is. Just drive through Wolcott Square and you'll see that Boston can bareley take care of the property it already owns.  Not to mention the disgraceful neglect of the poorer Dorchester, Roxbury, Hyde Park neighborhoods. I'm posting my recent correspondence with Campanelli to publicly state my concerns:
MY EMAIL:
Dear Sir/Madam,
I see from your website that you are working closely with the town of Dedham to answer the concerns of the community.  As a new resident of Readville, Hyde Park, I was discouraged that your website does not bother to address the concerns of the residents and home owners of my quiet neighborhood. I am quite concerned about the repercussions of your project. Specifically, the impact on my home value, quality of life, traffic, and additional drain on what little resources that are currently provided for our neighborhood by the City of Boston.  One look at Wolcott Square shows that there is clearly a lack of urgency on the part of the city to clean up or care for this area.  The roads are a mess, the post office is a disgraceful looking structure and the roadsides -especially the MBTA properties - are littered with garbage and unkempt landscapes. Not to mention safety issues. There was another shooting in Hyde Park last week.

In addition, this country is in the midst of a serious downturn in real estate.  There is plenty of housing available already so we really don't need this project. Adding this many new properties would surely reduce the value of the homes of current residents. Readville needs to be aware of the potentially destructive nature of your project. I realize you are working with Mayor Menino on this, but his home is on the far side of Readville, so his property and lifestyle are much less likely to be affected by your project. I certainly hope that moving forward you will consider the livelihood of the residents in the neighborhood you plan to drastically alter.  I would be very interested in participating in a task force and any public meetings you hold, so please let me know what your plans are for working with the people of Readville and Hyde Park.

CAMPANELLI'S RESPONSE:
Thank you for your email about the former Stop & Shop warehouse site in Readville.  We appreciate your concern about the future of this site in your neighborhood. We want to assure you that we will work directly with you and your neighbors to ensure that abutters and the Readville community will be informed at every step and will be involved in the planning process for the property.  We have not yet started the planning process. The site is on the Dedham-Boston border, with half of it lying in Dedham and half in Readville. The Dedham portion is accessible only through Boston. As the owners of the property, we believe it would be better to have the entire site under Boston’s control. We think this would provide a better, simplified planning process and would ultimately produce a better outcome for the Readville neighborhood and the city.

Because of this, we are currently working with the Town of Dedham to see whether the town will allow Boston to annex its portion of our property. Once we determine whether this can happen, then we can move forward and begin working with Boston officials and Readville neighborhoods on future plans. Again, thank you for your email. We will make sure to update you as we move forward. In the meantime, please feel free to contact me directly if you have additional questions or concerns.

MY RESPONSE:
Thank you for your reply. It would be much more palatable to see Campanelli work on a method to provide Dedham access to your housing park than to try to shift the traffic of 1,850 homes + untold business traffic to my small neighborhood. I am shocked that annexing a part of Dedham to my neighborhood is even on the table.  I can not think of a single guaranteed "better outcome for the Readville neighborhood" as you put it. Please do not make the mistake of writing off our neighborhood as a poor, uneducated, minority neighborhood where you can depreciate the value of our homes and lives for your own profit.  Regardless of what spin you put on it, I doubt that this Growth is Smart for Readville. Now should you decide to donate the property to the cities of Boston and Dedham with a conservation easement on the property - now THAT would be good for the communities!

I hope to see some information on your website soon indicating a glimmer of consciousness of the Readville community.
 

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by: Heidi N @ Mon Jun 25, 2007 at 16:30:50 PM CDT

Menino is on board (0.00 / 0)

We've seen from recent articles and editorials that it appears Boston and the Mayor are interested in taking this section of land from Dedham, but we still don't really know what was discussed at the meeting.  The more recent editorial points out that Menino wasn't sure about the proposed size of the development and also had "some new ideas".  Is it possible for those who attended the meeting to provide a rundown of the discussion, Menino's concerns and his "new ideas".  I also didn't particularly care for the tone of the editorial, which made it sound like this was a done deal now that Menino was OK with it.  I would say many Dedham residents are a long way from thinking this is a good idea and as you can see above, Boston residents of the area are also concerned.

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by: Eric @ Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 10:47:50 AM CDT

**Updated info** (0.00 / 0)

In case you missed it, the Globe ran an article on Saturday, June 30 about possible annexation.

In addition, the next scheduled meeting of the Stop & Shop Committee is Tuesday, July 10th at 7:00 in the Francis O'Brien Meeting Room at Town Hall.  This is not the big public forum (tentatively planned for the end of July) but people should attend if they're interested in staying informed.

Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak.

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by: David @ Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 04:19:05 AM CDT

Just who is (0.00 / 0)

Jim McDonald speaking for?

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by: hereindedham @ Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 06:59:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

No idea (0.00 / 0)

The article in the Globe today, referenced above, was a poor framing of the annexation discussion from this resident's perspective.  In the segment appearing on the front page, the writer James Vaznis states

Dedham wants to jettison a 40-acre piece of property slated for a large-scale residential development because, officials said, the town can't afford to educate all the children that might move in.

Thats just atrocious.  That statement alone complete misstates the core issues in this discussion and if Mr. McDonald, who is quoted in the article, and other unnamed town sources (whats up with that) are framing the discussion as Boston coming to our rescue and Campanelli as some conscientious savior, then we are being poorly represented in the discussion.

If you read the entire article which continues on A14 of the print version, it goes on to state

The annexation proposal, which Dedham might consider at a Special Town Meeting this fall, is an unusual move in the decades-old debate among suburbs who fear the costs of new, large-scale housing developments that bring in new schoolchildren. That debate often includes almost apocalyptic predictions of overcrowded classrooms, needs for multimillion-dollar school projects, and the need for massive tax increases.

Come on!  Lets get a couple things straight here.  Right now if Dedham chooses to make absolutely NO changes with respect to this land, there is no way Campanelli can add a single student to the Dedham school system or cause major tax increases.  As the article mentions more than half way through and after all the apocalyptic passages quoted above, this property is currently zoned industrial, the only such zoned area in Dedham.  Therefore, if Dedham keeps the land and does not rezone it residential, no housing can be built on the Dedham half of the Campanelli owned property whatsoever. 

Here is where I get really pissed off

But Dedham officials are openly touting the annexation idea, saying they fear the increase in school population would not be covered by the tax dollars brought in by the new housing.

and quoting our own town selectman James McDonald, who appears to be the biggest cheerleader for Campanelli

"Our school system is strained now; we can't afford to approve any other development that would put a strain on our system,"

Why are our own town officials making statements framed like this.  Mr. McDonald has already stated in an early article in the Transcript that

"... we want to remind [Campanelli] that if the land remains in Dedham, we will not be changing the zoning to residential."

So whats the problem.  If we keep the land and don't rezone, then no new students will be added to Dedham schools.  If we annex the land, there will also be no students added to the Dedham schools.  So why are our town officials talking about threats of overcrowding in the school system and tax increases!

This discussion needs to be framed with respect to what is actually being discussed.  Can Campanelli compensate Dedham enough that Dedham residents would be willing to allow the additional traffic and any other concerns that may come with allowing an ~1900 unit housing complex on our border.  Thats it!  No affect on the school, no affect on other municipal services beyond what we already provide, no ride of the four horsemen straight into the school superintendents office.  If Mr. McDonald and the other unnamed Dedham officials truly want to help Dedham residents make an informed and intelligent decision on this matter, they need to take any potential residential rezoning of the Dedham land off the table and they need to frame the discussion as I've described above and others have discussed in this thread.  Only then should we approach Campanelli with our bargaining position.  The current framing of the discussion by our town officials does a disservice to the community and makes me question their motives.

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by: Eric @ Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 08:10:54 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

well said (0.00 / 0)

Your comment hadn't been posted yet when I began mine below, but you say it much better than I did, Eric.

myDedham.org - a community since 1636 and online since 2007!

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by: Brian @ Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 08:21:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

wants to? (0.00 / 0)

Late in the story we read that

If annexation fails, the developer will have to rethink plans for the property, MacDonald said, because the town is adamant about not rezoning the land for residential use.

 so I don't understand why

Dedham wants to jettison a 40-acre piece of property slated for a large-scale residential development because, officials said, the town can't afford to educate all the children that might move in.

If we are not going to rezone the property for residential use then why would we be worried about the kids that might move in?  Also, it says that Dedham wants to get rid of the land - does that accurately describe the sentiments of the committee?  Like I say above, I haven't talked to anyone who wants this project to go through.

myDedham.org - a community since 1636 and online since 2007!

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by: Brian @ Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 08:17:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Chuckle (0.00 / 0)

I had to chuckle this morning when I read a letter to the editor in today's Globe titled, "Grim Reader."  The writer states that he was startled when he looked at his Charlie Card and noted that directly under his picture it read, "expires 4/30/2012."  His initial thought was something like, how do they know when I will die? He felt that the card should have read "Card expires......"  It is ironic because I felt much the same way when I read the article on the front page that made the proposed annexation of the land in Dedham sound like a wonderful opportunity that both Dedham and Boston were advocating for.  That is certainly not the impression I have gotten from all the reading and "talk around town" that I have heard.  It is amazing how something can be "skewed" and presented in print differntly than the reality of the situation.  This guy doesn't plan to expire in 2012 and I am one more Dedham resident who doesn't want this land to go to Boston, despite what it says in the paper.

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by: Theresa J @ Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 08:55:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Annexation or not - THAT IS THE QUESTION (0.00 / 0)

I have read the comments, I have read the newspaper reports, I have talked with various individuals who have an opinion on this matter.  My observations:
1) Foremost: do we want to go forward with annexation - yes or no?  IF the answer is yes, THEN we discuss a financial package.
2) IF the answer is no, then we close up shop and go home.

  SIMPLE

HOWEVER, there are ramifications either way:

IF yes:  I would begin by saying that we are under absolutely no obligation to do so.  Nor is it at all likely that we would rezone the parcel residential, that would be akin to shooting ourselves in the foot.  You could say that it MIGHT happen when pigs fly!  That's how sure I am. 

  Jim MacDonald and Mike Podolski have met with the Mayor and he has indicated he is in favor - WITH a few reservations.  The Boston City Councilor who represents Readville, Robert Consalvo, is in favor IF it can be a win/win for Readville and Boston.  The Mayor seemed ''unsure'' of the size (1850 units).  He expressed interest in a mixed use scenario - business and housing.  If memory serves he mentioned that the BioTech industry is poised to become the next ''hot'' industry.  If I recall, Brian mentioned this mixed use concept also. The Mayor also claims to be a proponent of open space.  Campanelli has stated that they are planning to have ''some 40B'' units on the site.  This should make the Mayor very happy as he has been getting jabs lately about the lack of affordable housing (hence the 40B).  Question: does the Mayor have the clout to push his agenda?  Obviously we will have no input into any of the decision making process. So, we know where we and they stand. 

  No impact on our school system.  That is a plus; a BIG plus in view of the other developments going on here in town.
  I believe that Mr. Vaznis of the Boston Globe is somewhat confused.  (article in 6-30-07 Boston Globe) ''But Dedham officials are openly touting the  annexation idea, saying that they fear the increase in school population would not be covered by the tax dollars brought in by the new housing.''  ''jettison a 40acre piece of property.... because, officials said, the town can't afford to educate all of the children that might move in''  ?HUH? I would love to have some of whatever it is that he is smoking!  I would also give a few of those baggies to know who these ''officials'' are.  Jim may have made some remark about our school system being strained now.  But to suggest that if we ALLOW annexation it would only exasperate the problem is ludicrous!  Also, I personally have not heard ANY official ''openly touting'' anything - pro or con (sounds like Eric wasn't to thrilled with the article either!)

  Traffic: Currently with the Sprague Street bridge out the shortest route to the highway (128/95/93/1) would be via the  parkway.  Once the bridge is back on line - could be a different story.  How much traffic (with or without the bridge) would our secondary roads have?  Could speculate on this for a considerable amount of time.  Without a crystal ball, no way to know FOR SURE.  I do think it safe to say there would be ''some''.  Also, what is the impact of Readville Commons going to be?  Add to this the JPI & Fairfield complex with over 500 units.  The Possibility of Legacy Place. 

  Loss of commercial/industrial zoned property. Not sure if there are any other parcels in town so zoned.  The question of ''adult zone'' may be moot depending on the outcome of ongoing litigation. (that sentence is pure speculation on my part - have no details)  However, for what it's worth, Campanelli has offered to carve out a parcel for us for this purpose.  They have also agreed to a ''conservation buffer strip'' along the rail line to insure, forever, that no connection could be made from their project into Dedham. (like that which has happened with the Readville Commons project)

IF No:  Considerable uncertainly here.  Jim MacDonald has made a couple of observations (1) if they cannot do what is presently on the table, they will do something else with the land.  (2) what would ultimately be built on the site?  Fortunately, whatever they do propose they will have to come before at least one town board for approval.
  Several weeks ago they got a new tenant who leased approx 85,000 sqft.  Would they, perhaps, more aggressively pursue warehouse rental?  My guess is that there has been, how shall I say, only a token pursuit.  Self storage?  Appears to be profitable - I see quite a few around.  If warehousing flourishes are we likely to see an increase in truck traffic?
  Do we want to play Russian Roulette with the 2010 census?  At the present time we are ''over the hump'' with respect to  affordable (40B) housing requirements. IF population growth, and/or whatever other criteria comes into play, is such that we again become vulnerable, could they, or would they, file a 40B?
  Retail development seems to be out.  They claim that it is basically ''off the beaten track'', plus Legacy Place and Westwood Station are in the works. 
  I thought that Pumpkin Head had a good idea.

Financial:  Don't really want to get into this until I know thumbs up or thumbs down.  I will say this, the current tax bill is, I believe, over $200,000.
Also, IF yes, I'm thinking that the ''payouts'' might come under the recommendations of the Mitigation Funds Committee.  I would certainly hope so, otherwise it will be a feeding frenzy!
  At present, as Dave has observed, we provide police and fire services.  I dare say their taxes more than cover those costs.  True, if we allow annexation, there would be no DIRECT costs.  Would there be any INdirect costs and what might they be? 

Joetheshmoe

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by: joetheshmoe @ Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 23:49:46 PM CDT

Not even readville wants this developement (0.00 / 0)

I was over on the Mayor's street this weekend and the talk was how that neighborhood want NO part of this Developement.  They are scared that it might go up. 

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by: goodvoter @ Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 21:59:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

**UPDATED: Meeting on August 22nd (0.00 / 0)

Just to update everyone, there will be a meeting of the Stop & Shop Annexation committee on Wednesday, August 22nd at 7:00 pm in the Selectmen's chambers.  The purpose of this meeting is to discuss a range of compensation for the town in the event that annexation moves forward.

A public hearing is tentatively scheduled for 7:00 pm on September 5th at the Middle School.

Never separate the life you lead from the words you speak.

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by: David @ Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 17:02:03 PM CDT